dallashistory

done

http://www.dallasobserver.com/1997-01-2 ... ange/print

Thanks Peter! Some things show up on some search things and not on others.

Speaking of that, things on this site do not show up at all for some reason. Is there anything we can do?

Question,... does someone at Empress Chili have Jimmy's recipe?

And... could the canned chili w/ additions be it? I asked somewhere if anyone had ever seen Jimmy actually cooking his chili.
Joe

Speaking of that, things on this site do not show up at all for some reason. Is there anything we can do?

I am not clear as to what you mean, Joe.

I read the sites at ask.com and none had the recipe--except for one mentioning Jimmy's brother's chili which sounded "canned". Some of the links at ask.com were the same
A couple said that the pat of butter and celery with the dob of chili on rice is what made Jimmy's special.
There was no recipe mentioned at the Empress address at the link.

Sharon, what I meant was... If the Empress Chili Parlor served Shanghai Jimmy's famous chili rice, someone there must have had the recipe, maybe?

I mentioned at Roadfood.com that allot of new stuff has come to light here about Jimmy. That site comes up on the first page of all the search things. For some reason this site hides from the searches.
Joe

I HAVE EXCHANGED SEVERAL MESSAGES WITH JAMES SKALICKY USING THE PRIVATE MESSAGE FEATURE OF THE DALLAS HISTORY INDEX BOARD. JAMES HAS GIVEN ME PERMISSION TO PUT ANYTHING I THINK WOULD BE OF GENERAL INTEREST ON THE BOARD. THIS POST CONSISTS OF MESSAGES WE TRADED WITH A MINIMUM OF EDITING. I HOPE HOPE I HAVE BEEN FAIR TO EVERYONE, NOT ONLY JAMES, BUT TO THE SEVERAL INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT SHANGHAI JIMMY AND CHILI RICE.

SOMETIMES i HAVE ADDED EMPHASIS OR COMMENTS TO THE ORIGINAL POST AND THOSE THINGS ARE IDENTIFIED.

I CERTAINLY HOPE - AND AM SURE THAT - ANYONE WHO FEELS SLIGHTED WILL LET ME KNOW.


From: Bill Crane
To: James Skalicky
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:08 pm
Subject: Your Uncle, "Shanghai Jimmy"
…

I have a couple of questions about your uncle, based on reading the newspaper archives and reading the Ellsworth biography very closely. I just renewed the book, in fact, which is checked out from the library.

First, an early Dallas newspaper article about him gives the original family name as Skalisky, not Skalicky. This alternate spelling is repeated in his obituary many years later. Can you explain how that alternate spelling happened? In between the first and last articles I think he was almost always called James, which he preferred according to the biography.

One early Dallas newspaper article (perhaps the same one) also says that your uncle had three daughters whereas the biography says two and names Doris and Anne as your cousins. Was there a third child who did not live long?

I take it that you are a son of George Skalicky of Tyler. One of the stories I heard over fifty years ago was that your father used a different chili recipe than your uncle. That seems to be verified by the remarks James Wilkins made to the historical society, as quoted in the Tyler paper.
My third question is, can you verify that the recipes were different?

EDITORS NOTE. Emphasis added at three points. (17 June 2008, BC)
…

My list goes on and on. If you have a copy of one of the menus used in Dallas that is something else I hope could be posted.
…

From:
James Skalicky
To: Bill Crane
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:57 am
Subject: Shanghai Jimmy
The name spelling is easy, the Bohemian pronunciation of cky uses a soft c, ( as in rice!!) The name is frequently spelled incorrectly, based on the pronunciation--correct spelling is Skalicky. As you get into the book, I think the twins are mentioned, they were born defective, they were institutionalized, and Jimmy supported them all of their lives. So in fact there were 4 children. (Emphasis added, 16 June 2008, BC)

Indeed the chili recipes were different. (Emphasis added, 16 June 2008, BC) When Jimmy moved to Dallas from Tyler, there was a bit of a falling out between the brothers--Jimmy would make up a batch of chili and sell it to Dad, who felt it was overpriced, so he developed his own recipe, which was simpler to make, but had the basic flavor of the original. As far as Wilkins presentation, I have only the article in the Tyler paper, and my files are still packed, as a result of my recent move from Virginia to Tucson AZ.
…
Jimmy was outraged by it, as you will understand when you read it.
…

EDITORS NOTE: When James says "outraged" he is commenting about some features in the Ellsworth biography that were quite frank and that Jimmy did not want published. Okay, the man we knew as Shanghai Jimmy was human. But to me the thing seen over and over is his great work ethic which continued into his 80's and also the fact that he did his best to care for his childrem. (17 June 2008, BC)

From: James Skalicky
To: Bill Crane
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:21 pm
Subject: Shanghai Jimmy
…
You have certainly worked the tracing well, but I can save you a lot of effort on the family relationships, if you have Ellsworth's book, most of it is in there. There are a lot of Skalicky's in the Jackson/Mankato area of Minnesota--don't be led astray "your Jimmy" was born Joseph James Skalicky, in 1902. second child of Emil and Anna Skalicky--Also, the reference to Janet and Jean James are likely not the disabled twins, of which little is known.
…
EDITOR’S COMMENT: Actually it was Sharon Marsalis who did such a good job with the James family. I believe James is referring to her work, or mostly. (16 June 2008, BC)


From: Bill Crane
To: James Skalicky
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:48 pm
Subject: Re: Shanghai Jimmy
Well, what happened was someone else suggested checking the newspaper archives and I did that and found your family name, Skalicky. The Tyler paper gave a clue about the Ellsworth book which I am still studying and then Sharon Marsalis found a lot of travel and other information. A lot of that is mentioned on the message board as you have seen. She is adept at finding records in the family history websites as you have surely noticed.

I was a teenager when I had my first Chiii Rice about 1956 and for a while there were several of us who would eat lunch there. I moved from Dallas in 1961 but kept finding Jimmy - or trying to - when I visited Dallas. The Chili Rice menu sheet he used to stick on the walls of the Chili Rice shops had biographical information . I read a lot and read everything. Many years later I started to find references to things like Jimmy's Kitchen in Shanghai in the books I saw.

EDITORS COMMENT: I believe I found the first hardcopy reference to Jimmy’s Kitchen although I am still unable to locate that book today. I also found an internet reference. However, Joe King found the French May mention of Jimmy’s Kitchen as he described and posted on this site. My browser or search engine has never made the connection! (16 June 2008, BC)

I had several conversations with your uncle over the years and he recognized me when I came in his shop, but it was always from the perspective of a much younger customer visiting. It was only years later that I heard anything about the POW dinner.

...

From: James Skalicky
To: Bill Crane
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:46 am
Subject: Re: Shanghai Jimmy
Still not sure I'm using the features of the site correctly, hope you got my answers to your questions earlier. When Jimmy came back from China after the communist takeover, he and dad teamed with their sister's husband, who was in the ground floor of soft ice cream. Clarence had the distributorship for Sweden machines, and they placed some of the machines in a location in Dallas with a guy named, believe it or not, Jones. I remember taking several trips to Dallas with Dad and Jimmy when I was 8, the last trip they picked up the machines because the guy just wasn't making it. They then opened a Dairy Treat stand in Tyler, still remember Jimmy weighing each cone, ever mindful of cost control in the restaurant business!! After spending the summer of 49 with dad, I returned home to MN, and had very little contact until the summer of 56, by then Tyler Dairy Treat was history and Jimmy had opened a place on Bow Street in Tyler, had the falling out with dad, and moved to Dallas. Dad was in a store on 218 S College in Tyler--Jim

...


From: Bill Crane
To: James Skalicky
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:24 am
Subject: Re: Replys and Books
…

Your last note to me mentioned the "Texas Chili" phonograph record.

The chili recipe on that record has been posted on this or other message boards a couple of times as "the" Shanghai Jimmy recipe. I used to have a copy of the record and still have a strong memory that Jimmy called it his "ordinary" or "everyday" recipe and implying, at least for me, that the product he sold was different. If you have a copy of the record would you mind checking that? I do think it sounds like a good recipe, but not "the" recipe.

Please let me know if you find a different text on the record. I've got some crow to eat and apologies to make. Emphasis added, 17 June 2008, BC)

If you should happen to have "the" recipe and will share it, that would be great, of course. If you have your father's recipe and can share that, I know that you will make a lot of people happy also.

Also, there is now a link on the Dallas History message board to an article in a shopper's paper, the Dallas Observer about the Ohio Empress Chili parlour opening a Dallas branch in 1997. That was well after your father and your uncle had passed on. My reply to the comment that Empress must have had "the" Chili Rice recipe is that there was probably no one with an interest in Chili Rice minding the store by then, leving Empress able to use the name but with out the real product.

I hope you can shed some light on that, the Dallas Empress menu evidently having an entry for "Shanghai Jimmy Chili Rice."

I suppose that Jimmy's daughters, Doris and Anne were his heirs?

Did he leave a will and was it probated?

Who was his executor?

To your knowledge, did Jimmy ever sell his recipe or license its use?

And to repeat, did that phonograph record say "everyday" or "ordinary?"

…

From: James Skalicky
To: Bill Crane
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:16 am
Subject: Re: Replys and Books
Whew, will take a while on all the questions, but happy to try and find the answers. First, need to go back a bit, the twins may NOT have been mentioned in the book, I believe I got that info from an uncle, I do know for a fact that he supported their institutionalization for many years in the Dallas area. Now for the receipe issue, I found the record, Uncle Jimmy, Wick Fowler, George Haddaway and Joe Cooper autographed the cover, all were Chili affectionados. The receipes, however apparently are part of the recording, so will have to find a 78rpm player to access. Folks may be a bit disappointed in Dad's reconstruction, which did not include a lot of "home cooking". The basis as I remember, was Hormel Beanless Chili, doctored with a Chili Powder, MSG and a tomato product that for the life of me I just can't remember. There may have been more, but his philosophy was to keep things simple. Fascinated to find someone selling Shanghai Jimmy Chili, intend to contact them since not sure Uncle Jimmy ever sold or licenced, however, he may not have TM or Copy Righted either. Although I seem to have solved the Private Message feature, everything I have sent you can be put on a public page if you think it would be of interest to others--Jim

EDITORS NOTE: The use of a “enriched” canned product with tomato (ketchup) as a main ingredient is what was suggested in the Tyler newspaper article I quoted from earlier for the chili made by George Skalicky who was James father. (16 June 2008, BC). It sure would be neat though, if James were to find and share his Dad’s recipe!!


From: Bill Crane
To: James Skalicky
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: Replys and Books
Jim,

Thank you for the permission to pass on the information you have sent to me.

This just keeps getting better and better! I know the names of all who signed your record cover, partly because of the recent research I have done about your uncle. I ate Jimmy's Chili Rice many times of course, and talked to him a little, happen to recall a few things he said. I've known the name Wick Fowler for many years and several times bought / made his chili mix. George Haddaway's name is linked to Shanghai Jimmy by Google searches and I think he is mentioned ICW with your uncle somewhere in the thread.

EDITORS NOTE: I believe it was Joe King who posted the Google connect between Shanghai Jimmy and George Haddaway. (16 June 2008, BC).

As a matter of fact, there is still a George Haddaway in the Dallas area, now a very old man, as shown by peoplefinder or similar. I keep hoping that some one in the Dallas area will try to contact him, but to my knowledge no one has. I'm trying to get Joe Cooper's book by inter library loan at present. I may have heard of Cooper before starting this study, but not Haddaway.

The issue of some one else vending "Shanghai Jimmy's Chili Rice" takes at least two paths. Probably you are aware of much of the following but I'll try to summarize. First of all, the Ellsworth book was copyrighted in 1983 and said that Jimmy was retired from all business activity. From 1983 (I think) there were articles in D Magazine to the effect that a BBQ stand on Lovers Lane between Inwood and Love Field was going to vend Chili Rice and it can be read to the effect that the owners had bought the recipe. In 1984 there was a notice in the Dallas Morning News to the effect that Jimmy had taken his Chili Rice out of that place because they had not done right. I don't know how he could sell the recipe and then take it back, but that is only one of the questions. The BBQ stand did not last long. I never ate there, 'que or Chili Rice and no one who did has commented on the message board. The DMN article also said Jimmy was hunting for a shared space arrangement.

Oh, one more thing about that Lovers Lane location, Joe King Googled the name of the owner with no luck, so that is an open item.

EDITORS NOTE: Joe King also found the D Magazine article. PETERK gave us the link I think. (17 June 2008, BC).

As a matter of fact the last three places I ate Chili Rice were in shared space arrangements. One was downtown, the next at the Ashburns (Mashburn's ?) on Knox, and the final one across NW Hiway from Bachman Lake. I saw Jimmy at the first and second of those places and it was a vegetarian chili with black eye peas at the second. I don't remember if the chili was meatless or not at the Bachman location which might have been open as late as 1985. I don't remember the exact date.

In 1997 a branch of the Ohio "Empress" chili parlour chain opened in Dallas and had "Shanghai Jimmy Chili Rice." You probably read about that on the message board. It is very recent. again, there were Dallas Morning News coverage. I don't think that Empress lasted long either. I never ate there, never saw the menu in question, so don't know the exact wording.

...

From: James Skalicky
To: Bill Crane
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:49 pm
Subject: Re: Replys and Books
I'm learining more about my uncle's late years,the last Dallas location that I am aware of was a shared location with a German Lady, I'm thinking that my dad took me there just before I left to go overseas in the spring of 83. My recollection is that Jimmy was about to retire then. His action on pulling a receipe because "it wasn't being made right" sounds like him, he always wanted to prepare the Chili himself and wholesale the pot to a location, I always felt the success of Chili and Rice was more the man than the product, seems like only Jimmy and Dad were successful with it. I guess the Jimmy's Kitchens in Hong Kong have survived as well.--Jim

From: Bill Crane
To: James Skalicky
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:29 pm
Subject: Re: Replys and Books 9 June 2008 Monday Evening
Jim,

I remember the German lady. I could be wrong but I had the idea that basically Jimmy was kind of piggy backing in her lunch room which was - to my memory - sort of a soup and salad place in the west end of down town Dallas, north of Elm Street. I think the German lady was known for potato soup. I can't date the visit, so your memory of shipping out that ties it to a year is useful. But unless my memory is way off I was in two additional and different Chili Rice locations after that.

That place with the German lady was where I saw your uncle working very hard and fast slicing orange peels. I asked him what he was doing and he replied that someone had given him some oranges and he was making marmalade. I was very impressed with the knife work. I realized that day that among other things he was a capable working cook. He had been using the knife for a while, as evidenced by the lack of finish on the handle and the blade having been sharpened so often that it was thinned down. I think that was the also the time he told me he had just catered a Chili Rice dinner or at least sold a big pot of chili to Clint Murchison, the Cowboys owner. And, I think it was where I purchased my copy of the chili phonograph record.

I'll have to think about your suggestion that the man appealed rather than the chili. He certainly had a good personality for someone in the hospitality business, and yes he was very nice to me, a kid. But there was a BBQ place in Dallas I liked above all others until it folded and I was never more than a nodding acquaintence of the people who ran it. I kept going for Chili Rice even when I found a half interested high school kid behind the counter rather than your uncle in the last shared space operation. Of course I really hoped to see Jimmy.
…
EDITORS NOTE: Two or three others besides me who post on this board ate Chili Rice. What do you think of James suggestion (previous post – 9 June 2008, 4:49 PM) that it was the man and not the product that attracted customers? I said above that I thought it was the chili although I give Shanghai Jimmy high marks as a host. I am sure that James Skalicky’s dad was much the same – I think it was very important in the food service business in those day s before the impersonal drive through windows. On the other hand, the SMU location on McFarlin failed after a short time. I never saw Jimmy there and the operator was a nice guy but perhaps not so welcoming as Jimmy. At the time I thought the branch failed because there was not enough walk by traffic (which I remember Jimmy saying was essential) and because “Archie,” the operator was taken ill. But maybe it did close because “Archie” was not cut out to be in the hospitality business. What do the rest of you think, who ate at Chili Rice? Clyde, Joe, Ernie, would you weigh in? (17 June 2008, Bc)

I recall Chili Rice mainly from the Fair, but did eat it downtown (and probably a lot more times - but I still associate it with teh Fair), usually before or after going to one of the Elm Street movies. Location, I cannot recall, except it must have been convenient to the movie houses. No recollection of meeting or having anything to happen that would suggest an interaction other than ordering what I wanted, and then eating it.

Seems like it was served in a Dixie Cup and a flat wooden spoon (these days, be plastic, of course). I recall it for the chili, not a person, myself.

One of the "hits" for Shanghai Jimmy in the Dallas Morning News archive is a 1985 article about someone who found a 1956 Dallas phone book in an antique shop. The writers comment:

"Shanghai Jimmy James, who cooked the finest chili rice on any continent, was in the book. Jimmy apparently lived above his cafe then, at 1719 Live Oak."

That was the first place I met Jimmy. The location was on the east side of the then southern end of Live Oak which almost reached Elm on a diagonal at the Mayflower Cafe. M C Toyer confirmed my memory on that point, the Mayflower. Another archived article I saw described the interior of that place and said there was a "ladder to nowhere" on one side of the room. I barely remember the ladder with the prompt of the article, same as I barely remember that Clyde must be correct about the wooden spoons.

Jim Skalicky gave us the locations of several James and/or Skalicky operations in Tyler and perhaps will gives more information about Dallas. The Tyler newspaper article that covered the historian talking about Jimmy gave partial addresses for several Dallas Chili rice shops. I have seen the full address for the McFarlin (SMU) branch. The Lovers Lane location is another, although it did not last long. Knox Street is another that ought to be easy to check. We are on our way to finding all of the chili rice venues although I suspect that redevelopment has destroyed most of them.

The Live Oak location would doubtless be the one I recall hitting when downtown for a movie. Sounds about right.

Bill, thanks so much for the work you have done!

And thanks to James for sharing this info with Bill and allowing him to share it with us!

My mom knew Jimmy well but I am not sure how. She would leave me eating all the chili rice I wanted while she visited with Jimmy as he was serving folks their chili rice. This was when I was a small child maybe 6-10. I could put away two large orders of chili rice back then.

There was a Chili Rice location in Austin during the late 60's. It was just behind the main drag across from UT. I ate there often for two years. It was just like I remembered Jimmy's chili. I think it was called Shanghai Charlie's but I am not sure? I found a few mentions on the net about chili rice in Austin back in 2004. I think I made a post at the old history site about this? And, maybe at Roadfood.com?

Chili-Mate, Hormell, hmmm? I do think it strange that no one on several forums mentioned watching Jimmy making his chili rice. Since Jimmy was a one man show, I do think he had a fast and easy way to make his chili.
Joe

Sharon, I think I got comfused after rereading your earlier post. :~) You made a quote from me concerning this site not showing up in the searches. Then you made some comments about Empress. I am not sure if you were asking me about the search deal of about Empress "maybe" having Jimmy's chili? I will try to answer both questions.

The info here about Jimmy does not show up in my searches. I was wondering if there is something we could do to make this site show up better?

The "maybe" is that maybe whoever might have known Jimmy's recipe might not still work for Empress. Or, maybe Empress just made a guess at Jimmy's recipe and did not have Jimmy's authorization to use his name and sell his chili.

I have no answers... only questions.
Joe

OK, Joe, I think I see --you mean the info here on the Forum that we members have posted does not show up in searches??

That's good! It is a private member site and should not. We are on several others that are the same--unlike the old DHS.

If there is info you want to share-- say on road food.com you can always copy and paste the pertinent post.

Thanks for clearing that up Sharon. I hope it is OK that I gave a link to this site, and a mention info about Jimmy, at Roadfood.

And, thanks for all the work you have done about subjects on this thread!
Joe

This has been one of the best threads on the forum since I began coming here. Each post is like a new chapter of a serialized novel except it's all true.
I had never heard of Shanghai Jimmy or his chili rice before reading about it all here. What an interesting Texan and what an interesting life. I envy him.

You are right Ronnie about each post being like a new chapter of a serialized novel except it's all true. That is why I have encouraged Bill to write up a paper or book. Wouldn't it make a fab Legacies topic?

Sharon,
Great idea for Bill to write a book or paper. There is almost a book right here.

The mystery about the real chili rice chili recipe is something we have yet to solve. Could it be that Jimmy, as suggested earlier, made additions to an already made commercial chili?
Joe

Joe, at the risk of sacrilege offense I will say again that the idea has always appealed to me that Jimmy might have done "Everyday Home Cooking" before the Food Network came up with the show.
Nothing wrong with that--it was his additives that made the difference IF he did.

Sharon, I have been known to add a can of Rotell, and some extra cumin, to a 19oz. can of Wolf. Hey, it's not bad.

I hope we can get to the bottom of the mystery concerning Jimmy's recipe someday.
Joe

Sounds good to me, Joe. I mean the basics are the basics.

I use to make spaghetti sauce from scratch and cook it for hours. Not any more--there are wonderfully delicious ones now that I use as the base but enhance with additional garlic, herbs, onions etc.--whatever.

Then there is one of our favorite tricks-- and that is to buy one of those grocery store rotisserie chickens and use it all kinds of ways. My personal favorite is when Mike makes his wine reduction sauce and spoons it over.

I used to bake those whole messy grease popping chickens but no more when the store bought ones are every bit as good -or better- for our everyday purposes.

SharonM, and Joe King,

Some may say I am argumentative, but based on what I've seen to date I believe that Shanghai Jimmy made his chili.

I am repeating information previously posted rather than going back and copying over earlier posts but the following seems pertinent:

+ Jimmy said to me one time, in the context of the meat used, "I could make a cheaper chili." He was talking about using a cheaper cut of meat with more fat. The implication was that he made the stuff, not that he opened a can.

+ We have the testimony of his nephew, James Skalicky, to the effect that he wanted to sell a batch of chili to his brother, James s father. His father had his own sense of value and developed his own recipe.

I do not take it as important that I never saw Jimmy make a pot of chili. (I did see him warming a big stock pot of chili just taken from the fridge once.) He had a one man operation. When the store was open he wqas serving customers, or at least was ready to, and did not have time to cut meat, measure seasonings, watch the pot. To give only two examples of situations I think comparable, I have never seen them cook the spaghetti sauce in an Italian place, or cook the rice in a Chinese restaurant or sushi bar.

A big difference is that I know how to make ragu and how to cook rice the oriental way, but not how to make Jimmy's chili.

I also don't think it significant that the Empress concern tried to trade on a product with a big reputation in Dallas. Maybe we could tell more if we had a copy of the menu. That Empress location opened seven years after Jimmy died and longer than that after Jimmy was behind the counter. The person who wrote that Empress review was not taken with the Ohio chili. She (he) did say the Shanghai Jimmy style chili was the best in the house, but NOT that it was exactly the same as Jimmy's.

On the other hand we also have James testimony that his father George DID start with a commercial product and that confirms the report in the Tyler newspaper, as I've said. And here I repeat myself again, but maybe James will be able to furnish the recipe his father used and we will have that.

To avoid making another post I'd like to thank SharonM, and Joe King, and Ronnie for the kind words. I happen to remember a few things, as do several on this board, and have the time to try to look up a few more. But we are really fortunate that james Skalicky has come to us.

Bill, I like your idea that Jimmy might have used round steak. It was cheep back then, and has very little fat. Also, your memory is that the meat was chopped, not ground. If you cook round steak in a pot it becomes easy to chop up when it gets done enough. I have made chili, using a chopped up chuck roast, and its pretty fast and easy. Now just go light on the chili seasonings and you have a lean mild chili like Jimmy's.

Might a few of the unusual things from the LP recipe been in there? Lemon juice, Hmmm. Jimmy did serve lemonaide to go with his chili. Celery, or celery salt, or seeds. Jimmy did offer chopped celery as an optional topping. And, at least some northern chili recipes for sure use some type of celery seasoning. Northern... Jimmy was from Minnesota. And they serve oyster crackers with their chili up there. Jimmy offered oyster crackers.

On a jigsaw puzzle of the truth... all the pieces must fit.

Just a few thoughts.
Joe

Bill,

Jimmy said to me one time, in the context of the meat used, "I could make a cheaper chili." He was talking about using a cheaper cut of meat with more fat. The implication was that he made the stuff, not that he opened a can.

+ We have the testimony of his nephew, James Skalicky, to the effect that he wanted to sell a batch of chili to his brother, James s father. His father had his own sense of value and developed his own recipe.

then Joe's last post:

Sounds like an idea!

Also re the round state--I remember back in the 50s my dad liked "cubed beef" (?) sandwiches. I hated them--too tough and beefy for me back then.
Anyway the point is--Joe's post brought that cut of beef to mind. In the 50s those patties were prevalent and cheap and the texture when diced would be perfect for the type of chili in a cup y'all have said Jimmy made. I have never seen the "cubed steak" other than whole--but isn't it the same cut as our famous Country Fried Steak?? Have any of you ever "diced" it?
(Remember my memory is from the 50s and I disliked the sandwiches so badly I have not had them since but have had Country Fried Steak occasionally over the years--confess not my favorite either)

With all due respect I believe that the meat was round steak, but cut into the final size little pieces before cooking. IMO, If you brown a piece of meat all over, it concentrates the flavor as well as improves the texture if you want something with some "chew" to it. The end result is still tender with the long cooking. Also, you get more flavor in the final product if you deglaze the pan, which (as I remember) is an instruction on the phonograph reord. Seems like it has been reported that a little bit of lemon juice was optionally part of the mix given on the phonograph record also but I don't recall that on my own.

I will comment that my wife's grandmother used to season a beef roast by rubbing lemon juice on it, same as rubbing on salt or pepper before cooking, and it was excellent.

Obviously cooking a piece of round steak and cutting it up worked for Joe King, but I would be afraid ending up with something that looked like pulled pork or stringy hash. I'd rather cut the meat before cooking. A long time ago I made a big (for me) batch of chili and had the putcher cut and cube, to specification, a ten pound piece of round. He had a better and sharper knife than I did at home and professional technigue and it did not take him long. At home I have partially frozen the meat and then cut it. Its easier to handle that way, but kitchen hints are not the topic.

IMO, one of the good chili cooking resources is "The great Chili con carne Project" in multiple parts. The first part is found at:

http://www.fiery-foods.com/Dave.chiliconcarne1.asp

There you will find the several versions of or speculations about chili history and about as much information (if you read all of the parts) about ingredients as any cook book. The US Army 1896 Recipe for chili con carne is given. (It is also easy to find by GOOGLING.) I suspect it is possible, even likey, that Jimmy (who enlisted after World War I) had that chili in a mess hall before leaving the service. As a matter of fact, the Ellsworth biography has Jimmy in the Far East at the time the Ohio or northern chili became well known, so I tend to discount that being an influence so far as the use of celery seeds is concerned.

Oyster crackers I don't know about. There is a Dallas Morning News archived article where Jimmy says he started cooking chili and serving it over rice in Jimmy's Kitchen in Shanghai. Whether oyster crackers were available in the 1920-30's foreign community in China I don't know. Certainly they are served with dishes other than chili. Jimmy made an around the world trip about 1930 and was back in this country after World War II before he started selling chili. Maybe he saw them then. Maybe they were even served in the Skalicky household when he was a child.

It is interesting that the above mentioned Army recipe has a small amount of rice in it, but not the amount you would see under a meat sauce in a Chinese restaurant or the amount mixed that you would find in an (East) Indian biriyani.

Another good resource is W.C. Jameson's Ultimate Chili Cookbook with an extended discussion on ingredients and recipes a little out of the ordinary and also history. Many chili cookbooks are compilations of Chili Cook-off winners. Jameson has some historic recipes, as (to repeat) does the "Project" mentioned above.

I would say that most of the recipes in both sources cited above call for browning the meat. Jameson may have a recipe where all ingredients are dumped in a pot and tightly covered and cooked at low heat until it is time to taste and correct seasonings, and I know there is one such in Tolbert's Bowl of Red. The latter especially is a pretty good recommendation. I tried that once and the result was not bad, but I am in the habit of browning the meat, etc., etc.

I've rambled enough for one morning! Have a good day!

Sharon, ther's country fried steak, and ther's chicken fried steak. You gave me an idea. Make some chili out of that tenderized round steak.

Great! Bill and I do agree on round steak.

The chili project Bill mentioned is a great place to learn about chili and it's history. A chili war once broke out over ground verses cubed. Another war started when a lady won the State Fair of Texas chili cook off and became the Texas state championship. Hey, it's just chili guys!

My memory of what the meat was like in Jimmy's chili, and at the Austin chili rice place, is lacking. I should be able to remember the Austin chili since I ate there about twice a week, but %^&*. And no, I didn't do drugs back then. I was a pool and poker hustler... and showed up in class now and then. No room for drugs in my schedule.

About northern chili... it is REAL popular up there. There is a chili parlor on every street corner in Cincinnati. Chili in other areas up north is also popular but does not have the sweet touch that Cinci cili has. Steak n Shake serves this type of chili.

There are 5 things about northern chili that remind me of Jimmy;

1. It's mild

2. It's low fat

3. Celery seasoning is hiding in there

4.They serve oyster crackers

5. It is served over pasta

If you told Frank Tolbert that you were going to put his chili over spaghetti he might have shot you! None of the 5 things above in part of the Texas chili tradition. One thing we do know is that Jimmy did not grow up in Texas. It just seams a big coincadence that northern chili deal has so much in common with Jimmy's chili rice.

Bill brought up something I didn't know. Jimmy started serving chili over rice at Jimmy's Kitchen. Could northern chili have influenced Jimmy before he went to Shanghai? Hmmm, Jimmy was cooking chili in Shanghai before it became a big deal in Texas.

To quote Bill... "I've rambled enough for one morning! Have a good day!".
Joe

I have to confess, and I think this is also repeated, that I do not have an exact memory of Shanghai Jimmy's chili. Assuming that it was still available the year my mother died, the last time I had it was in the final shared space location I remember and served by a less than interested part time highschool boy. That was about twenty-three years ago. At this point I can say with certainty that I never saw Shanghai Jimmy serve chili over pasta. To me the fact that something called "Shanghai Jimmy's Chili Rice" was served in the Dallas branch of Empress does not mean that Jimmy ever served it over pasta.

Also, I am sure never detected the flavor of celery seeds. If I ever expressed the idea that clery seeds were in his recipe I mis-spoke, but I don't believe I did and if I did I withdraw the statement and apologize.

For what it is worth the Jameson Ultimate Chili Cookbook mentioned earlier today has a section on seasonings and celery seeds are not mentioned.

At least nine years after the death of my mother I made chili for a bunch of people I assumed to be tendermouths. I used a package of Wick Fowlwr's mix and twice as much meat as called for and may have made some other changes I do't recall. I thought at the time the product was about as close to Shanghai Jimmy's as ever I made.

In this century I've several times ordered a bowl of chili and side of rice and chooped onions and cheese at El fenix restaurants when visiting the DFW area. That is assuredly not like Shanghai Jimmy's but it is very good chili over rice, IMO. I think the chili was less red and more brown. It may be that the El Fenix "gravy" recipe seen on the Dallas History message board could be a basis for making a similar chili. But if I can't tell you what the Shanghai Jimmy chili was, I can say waht it was not, and it was not like that El Fenix serves.

The best chili I've had after the last by Shanghai Jimmy's was the brick chili from Ryfsky's (sp?) in Fort Worth (two locations) which I took to my wifes sister and we ate over rice cooked there. That is good stuff! Again I think Jimmy's was different. If you ever decide to try that version, call ahead. The brick chili may not be available year around in both locations.

Finally, I must also confess that I hsve never gone to the curent Tolbert's although I hope to if an when I visit Dallas again. Ditto for several places in Oklahoma as mentioned on roadfood by tiki and iceomat. Darn, those ideas were formalated in march and I have not made it yet!