dallashistory

Bill
I clicked on the link you provided and got an error message. I tried several times but never got there

The resource I use or recommend concerning competition chili is The Chili Appreciation Society International or CASI which is the "official" sanctioning body for chili cookoffs in Texas.
http://www.chili.org/

They can be a concarned bunch depending on which phase the moon is in (like Joe says, it's just chili) and are the folks that award points that qualifies for the big cookoff in Terlingua.

Sir, I am sorry about the failure. It seems that internet addresses are a great bane for me considering the several times I've been unable to raise a site named by Joe King or Peterk. However, I suggest you GOOGLE "great american chili project" and see what happens. The "Part 1" I mentioned is the first return on my computer although the name is edited. And when I select that link, the address is - to these old eyes - same as I quoted.

Your point about chili competitions is well taken. One of the references I've seen (don't know right now if it is internet or a book) says that the key to winning chili competitions regularly is not so much making the "best" chili, but rather making chili that the judges will like. Sage advice for any subjective competition!!!

Going back to something else that was first mentioned by Joe King the Tyler Rotary that sponsors a local competition evidently had some one selling their version of Chili Rice during the last contest. He found / posted the information a month or so after the fact. Presumabley they will do the same thing next year. That's another place I'd like to visit.

I wonder how many people who go to that Tyler competition or those who attend Dallas area contests have a firm memory of the chili made by either Skalicky brother?

Bill

It seems that internet addresses are a great bane for me considering the several times I've been unable to raise a site named by Joe King or Peterk

it looks like you are typing in the urls into forum rather than copying and pasting them. for example what you posted was

http://www.fiery-foods.com/Davechiliconcarne1.asp

based upon your search term this is what I found. what was missing was the forward slash between Dave and chiliconcarne

http://www.fiery-foods.com/Dave/chiliconcarne1.asp

my recommendation is the following

1. when you find an or link you want to post to the forum just highlight the url in your browser/address bar.

2. once it is highlighted do a right click, that brings up a window

3. if copy is not greyed out you left click on the word copy

4. now when you want to post it in the forum just put your cursor in the forum message space, right click then left clik on paste

if you use Firefox you can have multiple tabs open which makes the copying and pasting easier

Next time I try I will come back to your note for reference. Thank you.

I tried to make a post yesterday but the site was down. It would not take my post. There was a message from Freeforums.com saying the site could not be found. I hope I can remember everything.

Ronnie, thanks! I will try that link thing next time.

Bill, I just meant that rice is kinda sorta the same concept as pasta. I did not mean to imply that Jimmy ever used pasta.

Celery... I am reasonably sure that celery seasoning of some kind is a secret ingredient in some northern chilis. Not enough to taste, but it would change the flavor. There are lots of chili recipes floating around the net that use celery seasonings. And, some folks use Old Bay seasoning ant I think it has celery of some kind? Since Jimmy offered chopped celery I think it could be possible that he might have used some kind of celery seasoning. Hey, just a guess.

Lemon juice... it is on Jimmy's LP recipe. Maybe he used some for his chili rice chili. A bay leaf is on there also. I wish we had that recipe here!

My crazy idea is soy sauce. I have experimented with soy and like the results. Not enough to taste but it will change the flavor. I started by adding some to a single bowl. Later I added it to a whole pot. One tablespoon per lb. of meat is what I came up with.

Some folks at Roadfood caused me to try skipping the browning process. It does make things faster and easier. You need a meat lean enough that it does not need the fat drained. It works for me.

Was Jimmy's meat cubed, ground, or chopped. I can't remember. I do remember there were no large chunks of meat. Bill, I think your vote is small cubes? You might be right. Maybe Jimmy had a butcher thin slice the meat so it would be easy to chop into small cubes. I use that trick for cubes of cheese.

One thing that we have not talked about here is Jimmy and Clint Murchison. I think some info was at the old history site about Jimmy , with Clint's help, almost getting a seasoning pack on the market.
Joe

I think I found something new? If you Google, (it's gotta be google, not yahoo or another search thing) ;

"shanghai jimmy's" dallas history

There is a new thing about Dallas News archives. They want you to buy them. But, you can read a little of the first part of the articles if you click on the "news archive heading" and then click on each article, and that lets you read a bit more for free.

Oh, I was hoping for some comments from my last post about Jimmy's recipe. You wont hurt my feelings about what you think I have wrong. Hey, I'm just guessing. :~)
Joe

Joe, I googled, as you said to do, "Shanghai Jimmy", Dallas History and the first was the old DHS thread.
there was a UT writer on another link that said:
"...the old Shanghai Jimmy's Chili Rice on Lemmon Avenue in Dallas, where you were served chili by the man who claimed he had introduced that dish to China during the Boxer Rebellion;...."

no recipe

Sharon, you gotta google

"shanghai jimmy's" dallas history

using the 's on jimmy. It was at the bottom of the 1st page. It is a company that sells news archives.
Joe

I see.
I have used the NYT Archives for genealogical research. There is a way to search to find specific info and you buy so many articles per time.
Frankly for the recipe probably not much help. I imagine someone could go to the Dallas archives and see more relevant articles.

I reread the old thread. This has been circulating quite a while, hasn't it? T.L. Marsalis came to light and life after a 100 years so Jimmy's chili may also.

use this link

http://tinyurl.com/64ywta

Thanks Peterk, that works.

Sharon, there was nothing new about the recipe, but some stuff about Jimmy's death. I think some of this stuff was from the Dallas Morning news. This place seams to have archives from everywhere.
Joe

Yep, I went from Peter's link and if you click the "news archive results" heading it takes you to another page with more stuff. One is about Jimmy's demise and is from 1990.

It is from a Dallas morning News article titled;

We all got Shanghaied and loved it. Jun 18th, 1990
"Longevity being the best antidote to death, Shanghai Jimmy's demise last week actually took some of us by surprise. In many respects he's a Dallas story, alright."

There is allot more about Jimmy. This stuff is new on the net. It was not there last time I did this search.
Joe

CAUTION. ANOTHER LONG POST.

JOE COOPER’S CHILI

I am still working on the subject of Shanghai Jimmy. As part of that, I keep hunting for what others have written about chili even though it may not bears directly on Jimmy. Even if there is no direct connection I think of this as, “The Road to Chili Rice.” In this case there is a small connection, or perhaps just coincidence.

One item I have read is the little book, With or Without Beans, that Joe Cooper wrote in 1952, celebrating and defining the state dish of Texas. You may previously have known the name Joe Cooper or learned it from one of from James Skalicky’s posts telling us about a record cover in his possession signed by Joe Cooper, George Haddaway, and his uncle, Shanghai Jimmy. Those three men and Frank Tolbert and Wick Fowler and E. DeGolyer are in the first row of my chili heroes. (Probably you knew that Haddaway was an early chief chili head of one of the chili appreciation societies and contest winner and DeGolyer was another chili historian and cook.)

This book may be more or less readily available in Texas libraries, but I’m in Georgia. The copy I am looking at came ILL from Baton Rouge, from the LSU library. I looked for this book in abebooks.com and it costs more than I would spend for this pursuit. No facsimile copies were offered. Maybe there will be a Barnes and Noble edition someday. It is interesting.

Cooper’s approach was to find or solicit comments from well known Texans and others whether or not they were known to be chili heads. His correspondents included E. DeGolyer, Dr. Herbert Gambrell (Onetime Director of the Dallas Historical Society and an SMU History Professor), Lady Bird Johnson, Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz, one time Dallas County Sheriff Smoot Schmid (whose Dallas jail was said to have outstanding chili), old time baseball player Tris Speaker, and others. He then tries, with mixed success, to sort out the sometimes contradictory replies. Were you seeking opinion from fifties era celebrities about chili this book would be the place to go. The book includes cartoons by Bill McClanahan who gave so many people a moment of pleasure when his work was in the DMN*. Curiously perhaps, no recipe is attributed to George Haddaway and Shanghai Jimmy is not mentioned. Also, Bob Pool who operated a well known chili parlour in Dallas is mentioned or quoted several times but unfortunately there is no recipe. You may recall that there was fairly recent post from Joe King mentioning Pool and his lost recipe. In the book other “lost” recipes are mentioned. Jimmy James was not the only cook who held his chili recipe close! Twenty -odd recipes are presented including the author’s own.

Two very curious recipes are given in a separate chapter as examples of how NOT to make chili. One of them was from General Omar Bradley, first CJCOS, and “soldier’s soldier.” Certainly the esteemed general deserved a better typist or editor or both although he was not a Texan. And one equally strange – to my eyes – recipe is in the “acceptable” group because of the high regard Joe Cooper had for the author, one Estillio “Bill” Neunhoffer of San Antonio. I need some help with that name. Some of you may recall I never could raise internet references to “French May” and “Shanghai Jimmy” or some such that others found. It is the same way with “Neunhoffer.” I GOOGLE and the only somewhat pertinent thing I get on my screen is about a man from Kerrville who I think was a delegate to the 1948 Republican Convention . Same family probably, people descended from one of the German colonies. But Cooper described Bill Neunhoffer as a romantic soldier of fortune whose international exploits were worthy of a biographer and a skilled cook . Neuhoffer’s chili recipe includes three pounds of meat and one (1) quart of ripe olives, chopped, and Cooper said it just had to be good. Quien sabe? Maybe black olives were the secret ingredient in Shanghai Jimmy’s chili. But I do hope someone will tell me about Bill Neunhoffer, whose recipe came to Cooper via “Ken McClure” who is otherwise described as a San Antonio author and radio announcer. This same Ken McClure did contribute one of the most interesting personal chili experiences in the book.

Cooper devotes chapters to the issues of ingredients. His five essentials are meat, red chile peppers (but never sweet bell peppers) or chile powder, garlic, salt, comino and of course water. He will add oregano and even powdered chocolate. He prefers beef (never veal) but finds that a variety of other meats have been used to advantage especially pork, and sometimes mutton, venison, goat, armadillo and Texas jack rabbit. If beef is used, Cooper said that the best carne is the neck of a mature animal followed by meat on the front of the shank bone, the rear of the shank having too much gristle. Chuck is also acceptable. Gristle is something that Cooper wants to avoid at all costs. His other great concern is grease. He several times warns against the “backfires” and burps from too much grease and wants very “dry” chili. He discusses the use of tomato and onion very briefly. So far as peppers are concerned, his choice is anchos for the chile flavor, chilitepine (sic) or cayenne for heat, and paprika for color. Chilitepine (chiltepine) are the fierce and much loved little wild peppers found in the Southwest. They are not always available. Cooper recommends adding a little thyme if venison is used, to counter the gamey taste. He quotes DeGolyer who calls the use of tomato in cooking chili “effeminate.” He does give a couple of recipes using tomato and/or onions and one of them is from a Mrs. H.M. Haney. Cooper says that Mrs. Haney was the daughter of James M. Cochran, second male child born in what is now Dallas County. Cochran Chapel Road is named for that family. Thickenings include corn meal, flour, and cracker crumbs and he says he sometimes used all three in the same pot. He is not a fan of beans cooked in chili, says they should be a side dish and that pintos seasoned only with salt are the real true thing although some favor red kidneys or pink bayous. He also quotes Harry Benge Crozier, author, and journalist and Director of the Texas state employment commission who said that chili could be eaten with rice, grits, hominy, barley, and corn meal mush. To that list Dallas grocer Earle Wyatt added eggs, crackers, and spaghetti and so on. In another place though, Cooper quotes DeGolyer who said that the use of rice as a vehicle to receive chili borders on chop suey. One wonders if Cooper (or DeGolyer) ever discussed this point with Shanghai Jimmy.

Cooper mentions the language the wait staff in old time chili parlours used to convey orders to the kitchen. “Straight” chili was no beans and “medium” meant with beans and those terms may have been standard. “Train wreck in the red sea” meant chili and scrambled eggs in one place. “In a bowl” meant a large order. Some may remember that in one of Ben K. Green’s cattle or horse trading stories he acquired a chili parlour in West Texas as part of a deal. Whatever Green’s veracity he was a good story teller. In that establishment the terminology was eggs “stripped” with chill, same as if bacon had been the side. By comparison, the Number one, number three, and extra or double terminology that Shanghai Jimmy used is almost pedestrian. A final note. Cooper felt that chili was a dish purchased from a street vendor such as the San Antonio Chili Queens, or eaten in a café and rarely at home and not on the cattle drives, at least before the general availability of chili powder such as Gebhardt’s. He says he asked “octogenarians” how chili became one of their favorite foods and most told him it was not eaten at home in their childhood. His implication, if not an outright conclusion, is that it was too much trouble to process the chile peppers.

Here is Joe Cooper’s recipe. It follows his prejudices as described above. Cooper stipulated that it was not the best chili he ever made (that might be the next pot) but that it could be used for the basis of good chili made by anyone and that all would agree was an acceptable bowl of Texas chili. He said also that his chili was a little different each time. Of the chili cooks who read this, I wonder how many have a recipe that is carved in stone, like hieroglyphic characters, and how many fuss with the pot every time?


Joe Cooper With or Without Beans 1952
Chapter XVI, Pages 191 - 196
QTY MEASURE INGREDIENT PREPARATION NOTE
3 LBS Lean Beef Bite Size Cubes (1) OR Chili Grind
1/4 CUP Olive Oil (2)
1 QUART Water
2 Bay Leaves If desired.
8 Medium DRY Chili Pods (3)
OR
6 TBS Chili Powder (4)
3 tsp Salt
10 Cloves Garlic Minced
1 tsp Comino Ground
1 tsp Oregano
OR
Marjoram
1 tsp Red Pepper Ground
½ tsp Black Pepper Ground
1 TBS Sugar
3 TBS Paprika Ground
3 TBS Flour
6 TBS Corn Meal

NOTES

(1) Cooper recommends beef neck or fore-quarter, never veal, and says that up to one-third pork is “no grounds for divorce.” He says if time does not permit dicing that a coarse ground meat, ¾ plate preferred but that a ½ inch is okay and 5/8 inch better, and admits that good chili can be made from finely ground meat if there is no time for dicing. Cooper is trying to help most anyone make chili even if he does NOT put onions or tomato in his own pot.

(2) Cooper holds that olive oil is more easily digested than beef grease (rendered suet) and that pork fat (lard) is to be reserved for frying chicken.

(3) Ancho peppers are the only variety discussed, as previously related.
(4) Cooper is at pains distinguish between chile powder which contains only a pepper or peppers used to flavor chili and chili powder or chili blend which will include other necessary spices. The quantities of comino and oregano given are for a chili powder. The use of pods to make chili from scratch will require at least half again more of the comino, oregano, and red pepper. He does not name a brand of chili powder in the recipe. In the book otherwise I think he mentions only Gebhardt’s although he gives the Walker Chili recipe specifying Mexene.

Preparation.

• Allow an afternoon for the best result, including processing chili pods from scratch and dicing meat.
• Although not first in the ingredient list it would be well to start with the peppers, if used. For a “fairly hot” chili, remove the stems and seeds and boil eight chile peppers for forty-five minutes after which the skns can be slipped off resulting in one-half to three-quarters cup of pulp which should be rubbed through a sieve or colander before adding to the pot. Alternatively, the boiled peppers can be blended, skin and all before use.
NOTE: COOPER WARNS TO BE CAREFUL. AVOID SKIN CONTACT WITH THE BOILED PODS.

• Cooper does not mention doing so, but some say the water in which the peppers have been boiled should be added to the pot as part of the required liquid.
• If pods are used instead of chili powder, at least one-half more of the measures for comino, oregano, and hot pepper (cayenne in this recipe) will be needed,as previously mentioned.
• Heat the olive oil in a six quart pot and when it is hot, add the meat and sear over high heat until gray. Stir constantly. DO NOT BROWN the meat.
• If you like the touch that bay leaves will give, put them in the pot for fifteen – twenty minutes at the start. They are easier to remove before the seasonings are added.

NOTE: CURRENT RECIPES MIGHT WARN TO BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT GETTING ALL OF THE BAY LEAVES OUT, OR ELSE CRUMBLING THEM TO VERY SMALL PIECES AND LEAVING THEM IN THE POT. SOME PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY CHILDREN, HAVE STRANGLED ON WHOLE BAY LEAVES.

• Add the water and cover the pot. Adjust the heat for a bubbling simmer and cook for one to one-and-one-half hours.
• All ingredients are measure in standard level measuring spoons or cups.
• Add all ingredients except the thickening. Cook thirty minutes longer at the same bubbling simmer. Longer cooking will damage some of the seasonings.
• Grease in the pot will be more visible before the thickening is added. Cooper says that it should be skimmed aggressively if there is more than a thin red ring of grease in the pot. Many of Cooper’s correspondents say that chili is better the second day. Of course any/all grease can be removed easily if the chili is refrigerated over night.
• Mix whatever thickening is used with cold water and add to the pot. Cook for five minues longer to determine if more water is necessary (likely).
• If more seasoning is wanted, use the same powdered spices as put in the pot originally. Do not use a liquid hot sauce like Tabasco. Cooper is adamant that vinegar has no place in chili.

With this chili Cooper would serve crackers, finely chopped onions, and catsup. The latter is his way of accommodating those who want a tomato flavor which he says harms the chili flavor. Crackers and catsup seem to have been the usual condiments in old time chili parlors.

One final note about the recipe. I have already mentioned that the book has a lot of chili recipes. There is not a mark in the book, anywhere, except at the Cooper chili ingredient list. There some previous reader made a tick mark with a blue ballpoint pen beside each ingredient except the garlic. I have done the same on shopping lists and recipes and you probably have also. I wonder what it meant, that not marking off the garlic. Someone did not like garlic, maybe? Cooper seems to have been a fanatic about garlic. I wonder if the chili was as good if the garlic was left out? And to those who may read this: Do you like garlic and comino? Do you use more or less than Joe Cooper? As always, thanks for your attention. We have on this board people like Ronnie who have not begun to tell us all they know about chili. I hope they will step up with a recipe soon!

*Bill McClanahan was a model rail roader, an O-Gauger and of course a Dallasite. Model RR magazine used to have an annual feature, “How I built my pike,” and readers would send articles on that subject. The best piece would be published in the magazine. McClanahan wrote an interesting article that was published probably in the late forties, as I remember. IIRC, he had started before world War II with tinplate and rebuilt some of his equipment to later standards but not what would be seen today. He might have been using outside third rail for power at the time of the article. I never met Mr. McClanahan but enjoyed his cartoons which were in the sports section of the paper.

I have seen a couple of structures that came out of the dispersal of the MacClanahan layout following his death (Dallas area model railroaders got together and helped his widow sell it). The build quality and detailing were as good as you can expect to see anywhere. Rolling stock wasn't quite to the best modern contest standards.

Good post with good info--Thanks Bill or as Linda will say "thanky".
Now I am starving!!

Someday, somehow that dang recipe will come to light!

IIRC, somewhere back upstream in this thread is a something that Clyde Howard said about J. W. Thomason:

Actually - anything Thomason wrote is worth reading.

I would take that a step further. I have now had my library run down as many Thomason titles as possible. Also, books about interurbans and railroads.

I would say that anything Howard recommends is well worth your time.

I've never found anything by John W, Thomason Jr. not well worth finding and reading. And his art is first rate as well.

His grandfather's house in Huntsville is a Bed & Breakfast now, operated by one of his cousins and we stayed there a couple of nights, great visit and we need to do it again sometime. And spent a few hours in the Thomason Room at the Sam Houston State University Library - a wonderful visit, with a very friendly and helpful staff. Seeing John's drawings and paintings was - wonderful.

Thanks for the kind words, Bill.

It has been perhaps almost twenty-five years since I last had a bowl of chili rice with the SJ label. The last I had might have been served by a more or less uninterested teenager with an after school job. (Maybe talking to Jimmy was part of the experience,) I have to confess that I might not recognize a bowl of the real stuff for what it is, should I magically have a chance to sample some. We have talked about chili and Tex-Mex and Mexican food of several regions inside and outside Texas. I have mentioned the chili at El Fenix over a side of rice as maybe being close to what I remember SJ offering. And I have found othe good bowls of chili.

Maybe its wishful thinking. I will put forward another chili as reminding me of that served by SJ. If you are ever around Atlanta you might try it. I know that team Marsalis on a visit and Ernie on a trip in are probably the only likely candidates. For some years now Atlanta has had a local chain of Mexican short order places which are presently DBA as Taqueria del Sol. The first in what became the chain was Azteca Grill which moved from the original location and I think is no longer a under the original ownership. (Be careful. There are a lot of plays on the name Aztec, Azteca, and Grill, with or without "El" as part of the name herabouts.)

Mostly the Taqueria del Sol places serve tacos and IMO you can do worse. They also have a chili and and a green chili stew, NM style I guess. Both are excellent. If you are ever in Atlanta or Athens, you might visit one of the places and try the chili over a side of their Mexican rice. They don't have plain oriental rice like Jimmy served. The corn & shrimp chowder and the turnip greens can also be decribed as excellent. The latter deserves a word, IIRC Eddie Hernandez, who is perhaps from Glen Rose was one of the original owners and the turnp greens are named for him. They may be the best turnip greens in a town where a lot of people cook good greens. No, they are not traditional maybe, but very good.

http://www.taqueriadelsol.com/

If you are ever south of Atlanta in Stockbridge (On I-75) you might try Azteca Grill.

http://www.aztecagrill.net/

Both look like great places Taqueria del Sol looks like it would be a great stop for Guy Fieri's "Diners, Drive-ins & Dives" on the Food Network channel . . . that way the rest of us could at least enjoy "seeing" the food

http://www.foodnetwork.com/diners-drive ... index.html

I agree that Taquieria del Sol deserves mention on the food network but am not sure it fits the profile for D, D & D. At least any of the three locations in Atlanta or Decatur, GA are far different than the two places that have been on Guy's show that I have happened to visit in terms of the structure that houses them. We will forget the adult entertanment outlets near one of them. T del S is more upscale, for yuppies or wannabes. The BBQ place with the strawberry dessert Guy celebrated in Oklahoma City, well it is at the edge of the old down town and the venerable building has surely been put to its highest and best use. And the hamburger stand in Houston under the viaduct looks even more suspect. (That hamburger stand has pretty good chili also!) So far as the T del S chili is concerned it is red, made from ground meat (opinion and memory seem split about what SJ used), and probably a little more highly seasoned than SJ's. Like his it is practically fat free. We are talking about chili here and I try not to wax and wane about chili but it has a well tasted combination of spices and depth of flavor, etc., etc.

There are knockoff recipes for the "Eddies Turnip Greens" on the internet and the result is good. If you like potherbs you might want to try one of these. They are almost vegetarian and pretty low fat.

http://projects.eveningedge.com/recipes ... ip-greens/

http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/article ... 6b90d1.prt

Bill wrote:
I agree that Taquieria del Sol deserves mention on the food network but am not sure it fits the profile for D, D & D.
----------------------------------

Sorry, Bill My intent was not to downgrade the establishment or structure . . . just a bad choice of shows on the Food Network

Steve,

No offense was taken and I certainly did not mean to give any. I agree that more attention is deserved, just not sure that Guy's program is the place for it. My wife watches him more often than I. I'll ask her.

Bill

My wife remembered that that Taqueria del Sol had been on the Food Network. GGOGLING gets a lot of hits though many refer to local "networks" and not THE Food Network. I suppose there is a search feature on foodnetwork.com also.

GOOGLE: Taqueria del Sol Food Network

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ta ... f&oq=&aqi=

My wife also says that Guy should know about this spot and she may tell him.

So... I'm wrong again! But I do like the chili there.

Hi, allow me to introduce myself, I am currently the executive chef of the Jimmy's kitchen restaurants in Hong Kong.
before that generates to much excitement I am sorry to say that we dont serve the Jimmy's chili you are trying to find
I would however be really interested in knowing if his nephew can give me a little information on his original menu and history behind his shanghai restaurants.
Its taken me ages to track down what happened to him after he left china and it was only through searching for a chili recipe that I stumbled apon this web site.
Thanks in advance.

FOLLOW UP.....

SO FAR AS I KNOW, THE LOCATION(S) OF JIMMY'S KITCHEN IN HK HAVE NO RELATION TO THE ORIGINAL IN SHANGHAI AND NO CONNECTION AT ALL TO JIMMY EXCEPT THE NAME WHICH WAS USED STARTING SOME TIME AFTER 1949.

IF YOU CAN DISPROVE THIS STATEMENT PLEASE DO SO.

(Edited by the Sinister Administrator, to delete a post and reference to that deleted post.)